American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 2)This debate took place in the conversations forums of Discovery Channel, since this forum are erased afer certain time, I save them and put it here.
Please go there to see the most recent conversations.
American Pre-history &
Pyramids (Part 2)
It may be wise to make text copies of part 1 as well as bookmarking it, for future references.
Shall we continue :-))
By the way, if you use the 'back' button you can find more. Also more on the home page. If you can read Japanese, you may want to reset the language on your computer to read the texts which go with all these.
The pictures, however can speak much for themselves.
Well done, my 14.8 kb modem looks slower every day :-/
About the Japan piramids, i havent found much, apart of the photographs, but there seem a book
A Continent Lost in the Pacific Ocean "http://www.daisanbunmei.co.jp/Tp_English/pacific.html"
It's from disovoerer of the piramids, should be an interestig reading, but i wonder where we can get it?.
Now, about the Pre ice ge civilization, i have read many supositions but so litle data.
One of the hipotesis, of a common languaje of all humankind 10,000 years ago, it does not suport much data, one of the links i found ( i lost it, leat me search for it again) for example, declares that al linguistincs has told us it's a lie, and al languages were invented 10,000 years ago to spread the word for a male oriented Divinity. That its too much for me, so i can,t take it seriously.
But a the same time there is an interesting debate on the origins of languaje
"Linguists Debating Deepest Roots of Language" http://www.santafe.edu/~johnson/articles.nostratic.html
The search of a common languaje it's the dream of all linguist. But at the same time in this debate you will not find references to the languajes of ancient america.
There is an interesting problem here, while there seem posible to find comon roots in the languajes of Asia, europ and middle east, so far it has been imposible to get a clear clasification of the languages of America.
there are several famiies and they must have dirverge most than 10,000 years ago. that why linguist prefers to suport the population of America in multiple waves, but i remember an article in Discover, that shows that the families of languages rougly correspond to the fauna zone, before the las ice age, so probably They were here before that.
Maybe they came here and they were isolated during the ice age, so their languages get time to diverge enough?
So far the fosil records do not show nothing older than 13,000 years.
The Main languaje in Mesomaerica corresponds to the family uto-aztec, but some civilizationslike Mayas, Purepechas, Zapotecs and mixtecas have language that did not fit in this family.
This is an interesting puzlle don't you think.
Yes. The linguistics are most complex. Some of my first links suggest this also in the south pacific as well.
This does make one wonder about the origins and some possibly very remote connections.
By the way, the homepage for the first link is a good place to explore from as well. I will be doing this when I can find some more time.
Ah, yes! Downloading is much faster :-))
Those were some most informative links. Great info!
I did dig into my linguistist links a little and found this, which may be of interest.
Languages of Mexico http://www.sil.org/lla/mexi_lg.html
I realize that you may have already found this, but just in case you had not, I posted the link.
The fist, fingers, five correlation in the link by George Johnson does seem quite intriguing, along with the 'ear' for hearing and 'ear' of corn non-correlation and similar problems encountered by linguistics scolars.
Besides vocabulary, do you know of any links dealing with primarily linguistics in terms of its structure? (verb - noun, noun - verb, etc.) That might be another avenue worth persuing.
This may be the only source from which this book can be obtained.
At least its the only one that I can find on the www.
I may have to look into getting one for myself. I wonder how extensive
the information is?
There is a much easier way to get those URL's. Just make a
text copy of the thread. With that now in one window you can
highlight and copy any of the URL's you want and just paste
them in, instead. Also, with this text copy, you have a copy
that doesn't need to be downloaded every time and server
crashes will not take it with them either. By the way, I have
learned (from the last server crash at DCOL) to save complete
text copies as I go along. I'm glad that you are enjoying the
thread. Me too :-))
I know where I'll be for a big while :-))
Just what I needed to translate just about any language :-))))))
My feelings about the pre ice age civilizations is that the bigest proof is the lack of proof, since it's defined as a civilizaion with no writing, no industry, and it did not change their habitats.
The chinesse piramids are very intirguing, but we have only few photographs, but no excation and hardly any data :-((
But also i have found very little references to african sites in the web, CJA, did you read this?, can you point us to some sites about african prehistory?
i will be quiet for a little, meanwhile, if you have spare time (hee hee hee), check this site
Thats an interesting URL indeed. Lots of useful information to bring things into context. Hey! and there's none of that 'new age' stuff to weed out :-))
So now we have (I assume reliable) pictures in these 2 threads, some un-certain information with them, and now, between our two gold mine URL's, we have databases to compare the facts.
This thread has finally reached maturity with everything in place to start an honest to goodness voyage into the pre-columbian history of the new world and beyond!
I'm fastened into my saftey belt now and on my way to Discovery :-))
Down towards the bottom of that page is a section called "Unsubstantiated claims of Pre-Columbian transoceanic contacts, some arguments against it. "
There are a number of arguments against seafarers from the Pacific having made it to the Americas, however there is a lack of data telling just how these seafarers found and charted so many remote Pacific islands first before bringing 'boat families' to them. There must obviously been many more misses than hits while exploring for more lands. A question about one other option that may have been possible: During ancient times in the cultures of seafaring Pacific islanders could there have been a standard practice within these cultures to always send males and females out together on seafaring voyages? Another thing to ponder over: Since the islands are relatively very small compared to the entire Pacific coastline of the Americas, would it be more likely that many 'boat families' missed the islands and landed on this coastline somewhere, possibly in higher concentrations at locations were the sea currents and tradewinds were favorable to bring them there?
Pre-Columbian Archaeology Related Links
Looks like we all will be finding a lot of interesting reading :-))
Now for hypothesis concerning migrations from the Pacific islands:
Since it is a well established fact the majority of the smaller islands in the Pacific ocean are volcanic by nature and at present there appears to be a few each year that have eruptions of some sort, this thought has occurred. How many devastating eruptions have taken place in the last 20,000 to 40,000 years???
If I was living on one of those islands back in time and the ground began to rumble with earthquakes, and later, steaming fissures started developing, I believe that I would have no choice but to evacuate my family etc by any means available, be it boat, raft, whatever. I would also bring along "tool kits", etc. (fishing equipment, shade for the watercraft, a means to collect rainwater for drinking, and perhaps some coconuts for food, drink, and natural cups, and whatever else I had time or space for)
With the only home I'd ever known undergoing distruction, the choices would be between certain death and a possible chance to live. It is human nature to survive.
I imagine that this scenerio has probably happened many times to many islands throughout the south Pacific. I also suspect that many of these fleeing "boat families" may have lost their lives, but those who were fortunate enough to endure perhaps months at sea, may have stood a good chance of landing upon "new world" soil. I suspect that there were no single great migrations from the sea, but many multiple small ones throughout pre-history. That would certainly explain why males and females would be traveling the seas together for destinations unknown to them.
I forgot to say, that the the Pacific seafaring lore for use
to go to Portugal or Africa would only have been intact if the
islanders landed on the isthmus of Panama, where their next
generation could easily travel by land over to the Atlantic
side with their fresh seafaring knowledge. If they landed off
the coast of Chile, they would have lots of chances to forget
that lore while crossing the Andes or traversing the jungles of
the Amazon. About hits and misses: I think in an old issue of
National Geographic, (lemme see if I can find it in the library
tommorow) I read that one of the techniques for reaching a
specific island is to head for the group of islands first
(where that particular island is located), then through
familiarity with currents, etc., island-hop to the island you
want to go.
In my hypothesis, I was not suggesting excellent navigational skills this time. I was suggesting the mere instinct to survive by whatever means people had available. I admit in this hypothesis, many of the boats, rafts (whatever) would not be seaworthy enough for such voyages, but under certain conditions there is a slim possibility that survivors would reach the shores of South America. Observations of the direction which ocean currents travel in the South Pacific, suggest they lead towards what is now Chile, then turn northward following the coastline and coming closest near where Peru is now located. Surface level sea breezes would have helped to "push" these boats towards the shore as they moved up this coastline. In other words, very rough one-way trips with perhaps less than a 1% survival rate among the boats with families on board, but also very many such evacuations via boats from these islands throughout time.
Nothing high tech, just the instinct to survive (Human nature)
It describes attempt to link ancient Americans to Polynesians though DNA.
I've discarded the remote possibility that Polynesia might be peopled from the Americas through the islands' lack of maize, potatoes, and bows and arrows---basic items in the Americas.
Current Volcanic Activity
If you click on the red triangle to the far lower left of the map, this will bring up a page with a brief description concerning the volcanology of the Tonga islands and surrounding regions.
Forgot to add one point in my last posting concerning the evacuation of south Pacific islands. Many of these islands also became gradually submerged by the sea towards the end of the last ice age, which thereby could also have contributed to an exodus of "boat families".
To angbor36, You did find a very interesting URL concerning
gentics. Thanx :-))
The Polynesian Voyaging Society
UCSB Anthropology Cool Web Stuff--Alphabetical List
cja, I found this within the above URL while hunting down some more information concerning polynesian history and pre-history, which may provide some answers along with a lot of other interesting things.
Papua New Guinea Virtual Library
javierd, I am still finding lots of good information in the URL you provided and it is still keeping me quite happily busy :-))
For all of you interested in the migrations to America and how humans arrived to the Americas, I would like to recommend Brian M. Fagan's "The Great Journey: The Peopling of Ancient America". For those of you not familiar with Prof. Fagan's work, he is the best archaeologist writing for the general public. He has written many books dealing with a miriad of themes in Archaeology, both for the amateurs and the proffessionals.
Anyone with questions or interested in discussing Archaeology, is welcomed at my chat: "Archaeology as a Carreer".
A still have not much time, but just some points:
If i remember well, the nearest from the pacific islands is Easter Island (pascua), where the oldest human remains are from 100 AD, after they inhabitated the island, the destroyed the fores to about 400 AD (let me search the date), there was not trees big enough for a sea worthy canoe, so they get stranded on the island.
Maybe they could recieved new migrations, but the other near island were barely habitable. There is an excellent article on Discover about that. The voyage was posible, as was show by the Kon tiki, but Thor Heyerdal knew where he was going.
Is there a link with the dates of colinization of the pacific Islands?, i haven't had time to search
Native Americans, can grow beard, but much slowly and thinner (i use a disposable razor usually for a month or more, although i am mestizo).
The native beard, looks very much like then mongolian kind..
As an anecdote i remember, If you know Toshiro Mifume, he made a mexican movie about 40 years ago, "Un hombre importante" he interpreted a zapotec indian, you can't dicern his factions from the other indians in the movie. (of course, he was dubbed).
See you in the weekend :-/
I could not find a link with the dates of colinization of the Pacific Islands (yet), but I did find this.
Pacific Islands Internet Resources
This URL appears to be a good start in the right direction. I think that I will have to do some exploring there. It looks like everything available might be found there.
in the link
there is a hint of contact between Rapa NUI (Easter island) adn Peru. It's bases on similarities between languajes, so there is a lot of debate here.
An interesting thing i found is about the writings in Rapa Nui, since it seems to be more advace than the writing systems uses by Peruvian indians.
But the contact seems it ws not very significant. I need o print this site and read it carefully.
show us evidence of contact between tucuma (peru) and Rapa Nui (easter).
but the direction is from Peru to Rapa Nui, the contact should had been about 1300 AD.
The authos says that native from Rapa Nui are mixture of South American, and from the Pacific.
But what puzzled my is the writing of Rapa Nui, i don't know of anything like that in Peru, and also it seems unique btween the pacific islands, how did it happen?
Unfortunatelly the writing speaks of very local events to be of any help.
Between the mataa, the tanged spear points of Easter Island, and the double-bladed paddles, as well as the similarities in the languages and gliphs and some of the food plants which are also Peruvian, this might give some more creedence to the sweet potato debate.
One thing that puzzles me is if there was travel between Peru and Easter Island at that time, these people certainly knew the whereabouts of each other beforehand, but just how long beforehand?
Also interesting to me are the connections with the Maori language. These cultures exist on opposite sides of the Pacific, and thats quite a distance! It makes me wonder if the Polynesian civilizations may have waxed and waned a few times during pre-history, and what they might be finding is evidence from the latest waxing of Polynesian civilization. (Just a little curiousity on my part)
This site is very well indexed too.
I will have to go explore some more :-))
Now, curiousity has got me wondering just how many more islands were exposed above sea level during the last ice age. If there were any sea faring civilizations present at that time, they may have had a much easier time island-hopping to the new world.
Now thats something to think about.
Now, I think I have something :-))
The conectio it's still not acceped by many archeologis, and a geneteci study (Discover August 91) with bones from Rapa Nui show no evidence of mixture with american indians. (this of course does not menas they did not have contact, just they did'nt mix.
Now the date of contact is too recent. 1300 AD, this is not prehistoric.
Rapa nui is about 2000 miles from the coast of america, and 1,400 miles from the nearest polinsian island (pitcairn, known as the island where the mutiners of the Bounty hide).
Archeologist and linguist agree that Rapa nui was colonized about 400 AD. Still to much recent respect the ICe Age. with this dats, they could have little inference in Native American cultures.
CJa, is corect in stating that aborigins from tonga look blck, but they did not cme from africa, but from China, in an article in Discover MArch 96, I found that they were the original inhabitants from what is now China. they started migration form 6,000 years bc until 1600. BC This original populations still exists in Malay peninsula, and Sri Lanka.
This mean a voyage of almos 10,000 miles from China to Rapa nui, quite a distance!..
I have much more respect for their navigation skills.
Polinesian languaje form what it's seem to know the Austonesian family.
However, as you did mention, a voyage of almost 10,000 miles from China to Rapa nui is quite a distance indeed!
A few miscellaneous URL's
Cahokia Mounds State Historic Site (near Collinsville, Illinois)
The Austonesian language family (posted previously in part 1)
Back to Easter Island
I found this, but it had no abstract. This is really teasing me. Any-one know where I can find some more information on this?
New light on Easter Island prehistory in `censored' Spanish report of 1770 ROBERT LANGDON
Ah! But I did find this URL:
Thor Heyerdahl: Norwegian explorer, anthropologist and author.
A quote from this URL follows.
"Organized and led the expedition by the balsa raft Kon-Tiki from Peru to Polynesia in 1947 to demonstrate the possibility of aboriginal South American voyages to the Oceanic islands. Organized and led Norwegian Archaeological Expedition to the Galapagos Islands revealing evidence of prehistoric camp sites, and experimented with aboriginal tacking principles of balsa rafts in Ecuador, 1952-53. Led Norwegian Archaeological Expedition to Easter Island and the East Pacific discovering distinct cultural layers with South American correspondences, 1955-56. Continued research and publications on Polynesian culture and migration, 1957-68. Began experiments with the seaworthiness of reed ships in 1969 (the Ra Expeditions) and sailing the papyrus ship Ra II with an international crew from Safi in Morocco to Barbados in 1970. Continued research on pre-European navigation, sailing the Sumerian-type reed ship Tigris with an international crew of eleven, from Qurna in Iraq by way of the Indus Valley to Djibouti in Africa 1977-78. Organized and led the Kon-Tiki Museum Archaeological Expeditions to the Maldive Islands. excavations at Tucume, Peru, 1988-94, discovering rich evidence of a pre-Inca maritime culture. Since 1990, establishing a Norwegian-Spanish archeological projectin the Canary Islands, protecting as national heritage the newly identified step-pyramids in Guimar on Tenerife, and chairing the Scientific Committee of the new international research foundation, FERCO (Foundation for Exploration and Research on Cultural Origins)."
Now this I find interesting!
This is getting to be very interesting indeed!
A few weeks back, I remember browsing through a pre-columbian relics site where there was a photograph of a pre-columbian gold casting of a balsa raft with a sail and about 5 people onboard which was dug up in some site in Peru. I wish now that I had posted the URL or save it as a bookmark!!
Looks like I have some back-tracking to do. Well, I'll know better next time I find anything remotely related. I'll bookmark it!
Well, its back into:
Its a real treasure house!!!
Looks like I will be busy for a while :-))
It seems you are having fun :-)
I am moving, so i will be out of contact a few weeks, until i gent a new phone line, then i will have to take my time to read all :)
I hope your move goes well, and I will be looking forward to your return. Dont forget to save text copies of both threads, just in case!
In the meanwhile, it appears that I will be doing more reading than posting for a while. There is so much to read through!!!
See you when you get back on line :-))
Arches are relatively rare, occuring in about 16% of the world's population. The majority of loops are present with Caucasians and Africans while Asiatics and American Indians have a majority of whorls. However, Australians happen to have the highest frequency (73%) of whorls and the lowest of arches (1%).
How did these early people (families - need both sexes to establish a permanent settlement) get over to Australia, except if they had sea-worthy watercraft during these ancent times?
This fact being just the tip of the known iceburg, so to say, brings up the question concerning the possibility of ultra-ancient seafaring populations having traveled to other places as well, possibly even to the new world.
Volcanic islands do, on occasion, have large undersea landslides resulting from ash and lava buildup which are too steep to be securely supported by the width of the base.
This can be one possibilty as to the reasons why solid
evidence for such early oceanic civilizations may be presently
difficult to find.
2. How/why/who made the Nazca lines? They are only discernible from the air. Despite my "New Age" leanings, I have a problem with extraterrestrial explanations for these phenomena.
Hope to hear from some of you soon. Thank you!
Moonlady, I will try to find some answers for you
concerning your interesting questions. Please be patient, as my
time has been limited lately. Thanx for reminding me of some
additional pieces to this great pre-history puzzle.
#1. Trepanning which was the ancient practice of repairing fractured sculls by surgically cutting open the scalp to expose the fractured area and the removal of bone splinters, filing of edges, and implanting of a "filler" of either coconut shell, gourd, calabash shell, or sometimes thinly hammered gold as has been sometimes found in Peru.
#2. Having already mentioned the sweet potato earlier, there are a few other plants to add to the list. The pineapple was a strictly American plant that could not spread across an ocean without human aid. "Ananas sativus" was widely cultivated in the Marquesas group long before Europeans arrived. At least six different cultivated varieties had been developed from a single South American species. The much bigger species which is now grown commercially had been later brought by foreign missionaries.
#3. The papaya was another strictly tropical American plant, and 2 varieties grew in the Marquesas. The larger, more palatable type "vi Oahu" was introduced by missionaries from the Hawaiian group, while the smaller variety "vi inata" was brought by the original immigrants. The papaya is another plant that needs human care to enable it to spread from South America.
#4. Another type of plant found throughout eastern Polynesia before Europeans arrived was the small, red husk tomatoes, another plant of definitely American origin, found from Easter Island to Hawaii. It had also belonged to the ancient cultures from Peru to Mexico.
#5. The aboriginal Polynesian tribes of the Marquesas group also show a much closer affinity to various aboriginal peoples on the American continent than those of Asia or Indonesia.
#6. Weapons of choice within both pre-Inca Peru and the "pre-Euopean discovered" Marguesas Islands were slings and clubs. To the west towards the Asian influenced areas, weapons of choice were designed more for cutting of flesh.
#7. Another connection between the Marguesas group and the Incas of Peru was the name they used for their god. In the Marguesas as well as most of Polynesia, Tiki was the name used for thier god. The Incas had the name or title of Tici, Ticci, or Tiki. Both civilizations also sculpted stone images of this god to represent him in some form to the common people, just as modern western civilizations have their images of the crucifix, etc to represent theirs. Stone scupture was not practiced among oceanic tribes much farther to the west of the Marquesas group, since wood was their medium of use. If people had originated from the west, why would there be the sudden change to highly skilled stone sculpture where it was not really needed? Another interesting point: All the "Tiki" sculptures of these Islands all face towards the east towards South America. All those in South America face towards the west.
#8. It has also been reported that the early Spaniards who found the Incas were told of the islands to the west by the Incas. (Ref. Pedro Fernández de Quiros, Narrative of the Second Voyage of the Adelantado Álvaro de Mendaña, The Hakluyt Society, 2nd. Series, No. 14.
By the way, these few examples are only a beginning for the mysteries as for now.
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