American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)This debate took place in the conversations forums of Discovery Channel, since this forum are erased afer certain time, I save them and put it here.
Please go there to see the most recent conversations.
American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
EARLY PRE-HISTORY / ARCHEAOLOGY:
Some very current info can be found at: http://www.latimes.com
Use the word (Luzia) in their search engine. Some articles were posted 2 days ago which can still be viewed for free. (This free viewing averages about a week, afterwards it costs)
As for a second info source:
Again at: http://www.latimes.com
A very indepth article (about a month old) concerning migrationary details can be found using "Clovis people" as a search word. This will lead to a brief summary of a three page article which is available for purchase.
LATER PRE-HISTORY / ARCHEAOLOGY:
Take your time. I'm still digging through these, myself!
Lots of pre-history / archaeology links as well as a few
linguistic links, among a few misc links of interest.
There are a few Clovis links in there as well.
Also, if some of the URL's run off the page, you can change
the font sizes in your internet explorer or netscape
preferences to a smaller size to enable everything to fit
within the white area.
And some research going on in Brazil and neighboring countries:
Now all these should keep everyone and myself busy for quite a while before the topic really gets going.
Happy discoveries :)
Since all these pyramids around the world were built during roughly the same time periods, would it not suggest the presence of well establshed pre-historic trade routes by sea? Certainly, overland journeys would have taken much longer, and it would be doubtful if any civilization could have traveled so far by land and had the same generation of people they started with which had the knowledge to build these pyramids.
Now thats something to chew on :)
The Egipt Piramids were tombs of kings, while the american piramids ere ceremonial centers(altough in some cases they were used also as tombs), something more like the zigurats from mesopotamia.
And they were made from pressed soil with an exterior of carved stone. the proportions were also very diferent, probably due to the diferent materials (they could no be made very step), for example, the piramid of the sun, in Teotihuacan, is more massive than the piamid of Giza, bu is not as high. And also there are circular piramids, like Cuicuilco.
Also it is very dificult to say that the were build on the same time periods.There are mounds in america as old as 4,000 BC,and they were builded until as recent as the spanish conquest in 16 century, that is almost all the history of civilization.
I would think that it's more probable that they were build by the same motivations, maybe innate to most humman civilization, to be nearer to their gods.
Whew! Its going to be like a jigsaw puzzle, but its interesting, trying to find hints of pre-columbian connection to the Americas.
(I'll hopefully deal with genetic leads later, once I can
find enough reliable info - unless some-one else finds some
As for the extra-terrestial stuff, you can make of it what
you wish, however the ancient legends are still of some value
if one will study them "between the lines". If enough of these
ancient legends are studied this way, some common denominators
should emerge, so don't cast them aside as complete fantacy.
After all, I don't think they would have been successfully
passed down through so many generations if there wasn't a
little something to them. Just trying to get to the bottom of
what that something might be is what I consider a challenge of
Also I have hear rumors of roman figure found on Cholula.
But I have became little over skepticall, from the lost tribes of israel, to the last remains of Atlantis, there have been so many claims, so let began...
First i have a little story for you.
Have you heard of Diego Rivera , the painter, he was an amateur archeologist, once he was excavating and Aztec site, where later he build a museum, betwen the aztecs remains, he found a bottle of coke ...
So he anounce that Aztecs had invented Coca Cola :-0
Later it was discovered that there has been a three there, when the three died, the tunnels of the roots remain, someone throw a bottle on the hole, and the rest is history :-)
It's interesing to note that deformed people, specially dwarfs, were view as sacred.
So maybe they deformed their sculptures to get this likeness, like Akenaton in Egipt, when the artist paint the people to the likeness of the deformities of their faraon...
On the other hand the negroid likenes of the colosall head may have more practical explanations, they were using stone tools to carve basaltic rock, not soft limeligh like Egypt, some of the factions of the head, like hears and hear are more carved, than sculptured so the factions are rounded.
Of course, it would be fabulous to find a conection with africa, but extraordinary claims, need extraordinary proofs
with an english version of the text here:
Which contains links to these sites:
One can only wonder how extensive this ice age civilization
might have been and where they may have traveled by land and by
Javierd, I'd heard a similar story with the coke bottle but concerning the Anasazi instead. Maybe that is a common archaeological joke?
I'd like to see some of CJA's proof besides Van Sertima's
book "They Came Before Columbus". That book is more a novel
than an analysis of history...
As for 'roughly the same time periods', I was not saying at the same time. Certain groups were built perhaps during overlaping times though.
On a related note, the circular piramid, Cuicuilco has a controversy about its age. Lava surrrounding it has been measured to be 9000 years old while the pyramid itself was dated using carbon 14 methods to be much younger. One of the 2 dating methods appears to be wrong in this case. Probably the one used to date the lava that has partially buried the base of that pyramid.
That's one to ponder over.
The story about Diego, very known here about 20 years abo, but i have seen only printed once, but this kind of discovering has ocurred more than once. Old threes, wells, excavation and in some cases, (which the arquologist don't find very funny), pieces has been planted by the workers. (that way they insure the excavations will continue. And sometimes the pieces can be very convincing, since the original molds used to create the prehispanic figures still exists and are in production...
Also I remember, reading about a merchant in the late of xix, that buy chineese figures, open etruscan tumbs and then closed them, as a joke for future generations :-)). Let me search for the book, it's interesting.
liangcheng, There is no controversy on the age of Cuicuilco, the age of 8,000 thousand years was a studio made about 1930 based on the sedimentation rates. This studio has been known wrong for a least 40 years, it's rather funny to see it resurrected again.
The estinated age of the conical piramid of cuicuilco is about 2,750 to 2,550 (BP) years, the lava was estimated at (450 BC), but is now considered to date to about 2200 BP (410 AD)
For a more detailed explanations.
Thanks for the correction. Its hard sorting through all this information that I'm digging up. Its trouble enough just weeding out the 'new age' stuff from the scientific facts.
On the lighter side for fun, you might want to check out the following link :-)
Now for something a bit more scientific, I found this one:
And for a good keyword to use in web searches pertaining to the pyramids of Japan / Okinawa, try the word 'Hiramitsuto'. I admit that there will be some of that new age stuff to have to sort through, but there are also some good links as well, and even a bit of good information mixed in with that 'new age' stuff within some sites.
I recomend this link
There an interviuw with the director of the excavations, he confess he arrived egypt as a believer of the new age stuff, now he is convinced of the power and creativity of egyptians. He also explain why he has vetoed excavation on the sphynx.
He believes that there is not enough proof of subterrranan chambers to risk damage on the spynx.
The equipment so far has detected discontinuities on the rock, which not necesarilly means caves.
The zone of Giza is made of limelight, which descompossed
easilly into caves if there is enough water, so there I think
that there is a posility of find caves, but no one knows if
they could be relevant.
there is enough mystery on Teohtihuacan, the city of the gods, in this link you can find interesting things, the text is a little dry, since it's made by archeologists but it's interesting.
I just came to the conclusion that using two different approaches to solving these mysteries may be of some possible benefit.
I have an alternative idea to try in addition to the normal conscious detective work of piecing all this information together. Perhaps if I spend the whole day, Saturday, reading and re-reading all these links, my mind will be so full of mostly un-sorted information, that when I go to sleep that night, my dreaming may mix and match some of it in ways I never would have thought of. Who knows? I might discover something interesting by accident, assuming that I can remember my dreams long enough to record them. It may be worth a try. After all, the sub-conscious mind has been known to be very resourceful :-)
Oh! and thanks for those links! I will be reading them
Thats probably a reaction against the excess on the past, when monuments where restored to the vision of the time and not against the few facts known.
One example of this is the Pyramid of the Sun in Teothihuacan, in 1905 the Dictator Profirio Dias order to rebuild Teohtihuacan, for the celabration of the first century of independece.
Thousands of workers, using sometimes dinamyte, rebuild the site, and the Sun Piramid, get an extra Step :-0
The same happened in Italy, when Mussollini ordered to rebuild Rome.
Probably most archeologist today have nightmares about this things...
---------------------- As a corolary ...
A friend who is a true believer in esoteric told me his own versions of the piramid of the Sun...
He said that the Pyramid is an energy acumulator build by extraterrestrials, and the goverment build an extra step to keep it from working, because that would restore the unit of the earth :-/
Here is the URL:
This topic seems to be so little heard of, but so very
I have been reading some of the material you sugest, but to
me it seem higly specullative, for example, about the Geminga
If Geminga exploded about 340,000 years ago, and then were only about 300 light years from Earth, and
if its shock wave and accumulated material travelled at 400 km/sec, or about 1 light year per 1,000 years, they could have arrived at Earth about 35,000 years ago,
----------------------------- To many ifs don't you think?
Of course, it is very interesting , i will continue reading
Yes, there are a lot of ifs to sort through along with the other stuff. Perhaps in a few years some well known established scientific organizations may have something more substantial (and already sorted out) for publication.
But then again, if they discover(ed) something that would totally upset our knowledge of world history as we know it today, there could be some kind of problem.
Nevertheless, what I've found so far has been some very
And thats only a beginning!
I believe I'm really hooked on an information feeding frenzy
It's good to have an open mind, but not so open that you bain may slip off :-))
To my the most interesting part is the high politics (or dirty?) involved with the piramid of Khufu ( Keops)
the story begins very inocent,
And engineer Rudolf Gantenbrink, is examining a shaft , while instaling a new ventilation system for the piramid. He sends a little robot trough an opening that it was belived to be 6 mts. long, he finds it's really 60 mts. At the end he finds an obstruction, so he gets his robot and then he try to get an optical fiber to see if he can find somthing behind the obstruction.
But he let the nottice know to the press, and the...
A puzzled enginer is fired
The press annonuce that a door with brass handles has benn found. http://www.m-m.org/~jz/sphinxn.html
Another press announce that a new chamber has been found, an a black statue was found.
AN organisation http://melanet.com/clegg_series/diop.html acusses the archeologist of hiding the truth behind the black people in Egypt.
An Angry Dr. Hawass atacks the press and declare, there is nothing there.
A still puzzled engineer offers to teach the egyptians to use his robot.
A still Angry Dr. Hawwass, says he has spoke with the engineer, reexaminzed the Videotape, and found nothin new.
And then i fund that the Autoh of fingeprint of the Gods(who supports that the piramids are older than 11,000 years, who seems to be the antagonist of Dr. Hawass , is now his best friend...
wow, that better than TV...
to be continue, the next week, on the same channel.... .
By the way, have you had a chance to look at this one yet? (which was buried in one of my last links)
At first I didn't see anything, but after looking for a while, I began to see a crowd gathering :-))
An interesting photo, I must say! I only wish I could have
a large poster size copy of this. It sure would make a good
conversation piece :-))
Craneal deformation was in vogue in ancient mesoamerica, just see the Maya skulls, it was a mark on nobility.
Unfortunatelly there are no Olmec remains to corfirm or deny. Last week i went o the "Museo nacional de antropologia" ,to check, and i can asure you that the colossal head are stilized.
Several of the structure of the head, like hears, hair stiling, and other objects are carved, just enough to be discerned. they live in a forest and stone tools were valuable.
I you want to see theyre more clearely you must see the little statues and figures. There is and specially beatifull, it's called the wrestler, and it looks mongolic.
And there are a lot of olmec figures half human, and half jaguar.
So, to try to look for race on this faction can be misleading.
And i don't deny that they may look like black people, i myself probably have some black ancestry, it's just that there still litlle proof of that.
I don't imagine a black migrations tht came and dissapear whithouth traces, ther should be something more, they had to stop in the islands in beetween and there should be more teltale artifacts.
there is another hipotesis that they have chinesse influence, since some one could read some writing in and olmeca artifact, but again there is little proof of that to.
Or is it too hard to believe that they do all that by themselves?.
I'm sure if some good links can be found, it might answer a lot of questions, but at the same time it might create a mountain of more questions.
By the way, I have been looking, but without much
The 'American history' books that some of us read, while in school are good examples of what the repercussions of this dark era in time has done. Although it is not directly stated in these textbooks, it is strongly implied that the Native Americans had no history! What can be farther from the truth?(!!!) It was the Europeans that lost their history!!!
Well, enough said. Sorry if I offended anyone. Just had to get this off my heart.
Well, back to hopefully unbiased discussions. (Its often
difficult to recognize bias, when our only available sources of
information are so limited.)
Glad to see the attempts to filter out the fantasy from fact, and I am growing rather jealous of all the sites that you lot have been exploring - gotta get a system at home fast!!!!
One little thing though - Some information on Akhenaton that I have read about has it that he was - um - deformed in real life. It is a syndrome that we know of today that effects the whole body structure, but certainly the face, arms and around the hips/thighs. I will try and find the name, as I cannot remember it.
The statues in the Cairo museum are indeed impressive, but I fear for their future in that museum, wonderful and fascinating though it is (2 days minimum for the enthusiast I assure you!!), as they are not as well tended for as we would like.
Liangcheng, I am overwhelmed by the superabundance of sites you have listed. Could you perhaps help out by giving me/us a list of say the 5-10 'best' places to go now that you have been immersed for some time in the subject? I should myself prefer those with some academic credibility, but over to you on that.
I can catch up on the rest when I have a home system!
Regards Interesting stuff!
Well, back to the subject at hand: Here are 12 of my favorites so far for a starter. (note: some may require a little 'sorting') These are selected 'repeats' out of the above lists.
I am familiar with Columbus, and how he said that the indians told them that ther were indians with dog faces who eats people, but you must also remember that Columbus translator, was a jew who speak Arabic.
I recomend to you the book, "The man eating myth" by W Arens, it shows how the epitet of cannibal, has been used to justify many things. And how columbus, has the sad honour of being the first of use it, originating the word Cannibal (from Caribe).
Most of the those proof you are citing, are rather anedotical, but if something apear, probably it will discoverd by accident and not prusposeddly, as all great discovers had been found.
Now, believed of not, i understand your feelings, no negate Afrcan or black civilizations, and protrait Africa as a place of ignracen, the many sins comited are more easily acepted. Many archeological places in africa, has been atribuited to White people, as if they could had not could be done by black.
The sensation is familiar, and that is why so many speciallist on precolombin cultures are easylly ofended, for many years indians has been denied to be able to build their own culture.
So peace brother, better help us, with the things you know, , for example i did'nt knwo about the Amazonian indians. Can you get more info about this?
What artifactual evidence are you refering?
Hi liangcheng, Considered it done.
The works of Mayas, olmec, Nazca, cuicuilco, Tajin etc. had been atribuited, to the los tribes of israel, to vikings, to phoenicians, to extraterrestrials, to chineese, etc. So to acept a new hipotesys will need a hard proofs
First we burn their history, and then we denied they have it...
If you click on the small picture you can get a better view of it.
Does anyone know if the Maori or their ancestors built more of these sized canoes or boats with this magnificence and size in the past and how far back into the past?
Now addressing the issue of Easter Island: The people that originally colonized the place, obviously had to come as families, or a least males and females. A lost boatload of fishermen cannot reproduce themselves. Using further logic, since Easter Island is such a small location compared to the entire Pacific coastline of the Americas, wouldn't there have been a much higher probability for 'boat families' to have also landed somewhere upon this coastline? Just some conjecture to think about.
Oh, before I forget, just because these people did not have gun powder and cannons for thier boats or weapons did not mean that thier boats were any less sea worthy.
My guess would be that people from all over the world populated the Americas in pre-columbian times, and travel by sea was a whole lot more common during these times than popular bias would lead us to believe.
Also in pre-columbian times there was not this fixation to immortalize peoples names for thier (re)discoveries and gold in the new world was used more for utilitarian purposes.
Well, back to the great archaeological American jig-saw
puzzle mystery :))
Today things have been much different, in that there has been the industrial revolution compounding things, in which case a much greater cross-section of society is aware, along with the exponentially increased usage of these technologies, a resultant factor of rapidly depleting supplies of natural resources has occurred, which there is little past evidence of having ever happened.
In other words, a lack of evidence for a former industrial revolution of this magnitude is what we actually know that we have found. Just exactly what the elite knew back then is still a mystery with sketchy clues.
As for ancient watercraft, perhaps the deepest portions of
the Pacific or Atlantic oceans may still hold some clues as to
ancient sea-faring vessels and the technology of transport
during those times. Things generally remain intact for much
longer periods of time at greater depths, but being made of
wood or the like, it also creates a greater difficulty for
detection. But then, if some-one did find something significant
down there and analyzed it thoughly, would the evidence be
accepted by a biased majority? I believe it would take
multitudes of such finds to do this. That I believe, is the
root of where the current problem is, as I see it.
Seems that I remember some royal societies did immortalize themselves, family and high ranking officials. Their exploits and conquests were carved for all to see (and later rediscover) and on one pyramid (temple?) the names of past kings were inscribed. As for gold being used in a utility purpose (I'm assuming you mean tools), I can't think of anything worse to use except lead. It's strength doesn't lend itself for use in blades or armor. If your meaning is for cups, spoons and serving plates, then I would say somewhat. I wouldn't call masks, earings and necklaces utility items, though. If you're wanting evidence of early man (pre industrial) depleating his environment, check up on Mesa Verde and other cliff dwellers. Some of the logs used to build with in the newest additions were brought from over 60 miles away. No one ever dragged a log 60 miles if they could get it at 30.
I saw a program on the same subject (same one?) several
months ago, but I remember the metal as being copper, not iron.
The pieces weren't molded and then put in place as in some
childrens toys today, but the stones themselves were the mold.
The molten metal added strength as it cooled just as hot
rivetting has done for ships and buildings before welding
became widely used.
As for people being immortalized, I was refering to conquering whole land masses and naming them after people of that society who discovered them. Royal societies did howecer immortalize themselves by carving their names into stone, but thats a little different.
Oh well, back into the www for some more explorations.
This has about every link imaginable relating to Native
Ok. Thanks for the clairification. I've been to Bisbee, and
have flown over that mine. It was huge 15 years ago. I can only
imagine how much larger it is now.
Hi ian1, Can you remember where it was?, this is the second reference to a piece of iron in prehispanic buildings, a it's interesting, buti really would like to check it.
I doubt that it could be used as a reinformet, but if that was the case probably was forged, not melted.
Iron has a very high melting point. It was not unitl the xiii centuy AD in germany when it was posible to melt iron, all the implements of iron has been forged.
I don't doubt that aztecs or other ancient people knew about iron, since the minerals of iron has been used for thousands of years, there an hematine mine in the midle east that it' at least 10,000 years old. And the extraction of iron form hematite and other oxides, it's very easy, you only have to put a big fire on it.
But when Copper and bronce (which are much more dificult to extract) were discoverd they displace iron, because they are superior. They can e melted, they do not rust they can be fixed and they are stronger (belive or not). Most of the iron objecs of that era are probably curisosities, like the iron amulets in Tuhamkhamen tumb.
It was not until a new discovery was made that iron became important. It was steel. Steel it's an alloy of Iron and carbon. But the technology to this, need almsot idustrial technollogy, whre furnaces could be used for days and days, since you need to put a piece of iron in a furnce for severall hours of days, before enough carbon difusses to get steel.
i would like to know why no history book i know, alk about this imporant diference between iron and steel.
I was fascinated by this (as if you haven noticed) afster i made my tesis about carburization.
Very few books of history show the impact of technology on history, and only very recently the ancient technologies and moethod has been tested.
Sometimes things look harder than they were. Like the case of the Island of Pascua (eastern), Thor Heyerdall, decide to try how they could move the statues, so he invited the people of the town to try to move one of the status, so the put ropes, sticks, etc. then every body pull, and they had to run, because the statue moved too fast. :-))
And in other cases theere are new misteries...
Here are some links relating to the genetic of the population of America.
As ever, there are two extremes, a date as recent as 13,000 BP to a date as older than 40,000.
From what i read, i get to conclusions, Agruclture began in america about 10,000 years ago, a date much older than has been tought
And genetics and linguistisc sugest an earlier date, about 30,000 years. yet i have not found noting that sugest migrations from other sources than asia, but this seem to be much preliminary, since the populations studied are small.
Their statistical analyses suggest that modern Native Americans share a single group of ancestors who lived in North America at least 25,000 years ago--and more likely between 30,000 to 40,000 years ago.
An genetic Study about bears show that they have continuously inhabited the Alexander archipelago for at least 40,000 years and that habitable refugia were therefore available throughout the last glaciation.
Archeologists on the other hand, say that there were multiple waves, since there are diferent american culture, that are at leat 10,000 years old.
"MOLECULAR CLOCK PLACES HUMANS IN NEW WORLD 22,000-29,000 BP" http://www.knowledge.co.uk/frontiers/sf093/sf093a02.htm
"Message 1: Re: 5.1500Comparative method, Polarization & review" http://www.sfs.nphil.uni-tuebingen.de/linguist/issues/6/6-10.html
An Ice Age Refugium for Large Mammals in the Alexander Archipelago, Southeast Alaska http://www.usd.edu/~theaton/alaska/pubs/qr1996.html
Physical Anthropology Update http://mhhe.com/socscience/anthropology/news/afall97.htm
Earlier Arrival for Earliest Americans http://bric.postech.ac.kr/science/97now/97_12now/971223b.html
So far, it seems that if was colonization from other sources, it did not have impact on the genetic pool of the population.
Now. back to piramids..
It has been estimated that in mesoamerica there are more than 10,000 piramids, but why ?
sometime ago, a read an article in scientific American, sugesting that that this huge proyects had an stabilizing efect on cultures, usually the culture that use their energy to create this proyects are culture that survive for hunded of years.
Because they have way to canalize the energy of their population, od course, they can be used to build dams, channels, but they also get involved in great things.
what do you think?
Some might ask that I give some dates bracketing Neolithic and Paleolithic periods. Sorry, Charley. The Paleolithic period may have begun before Homo Sap had made his appearance, and merged only gradually into the more sophisticated stone work of the Neolithic. Neolithic peoples still existed clear up into the mid-twentieth century. The Indian populations of the New World are generally believed to have been Neolithic before European discovery in the 15th century BCE.
We sometimes find metals being used by Neolithic cultures. Rich metallic ores that have low melting points must have been discovered reasonably early. Copper, gold and tin are examples of metals that we associate with early metallurgy. A small pool of one of these metals might have formed in a large campfire. Probably the metal was first forged, that is pounded into simple shapes. Casting, molding the molten metal into a pre-formed shape, is a more sophisticated means of using metal. Metals like gold, copper and tin are all too soft to be used very effectively for tools, so they were usually used to create ornamental and religious artifacts. The earliest copper trinkets known are from about 6500 BCE in what is today Turkey. So far as I know, the Indian peoples of the New World never progressed beyond this stage, though their artistry with gold is well known.
We next find copper being used in Mesopotamia around 5000 BCE, almost 1,700 years before writing began to be used in Sumer. The first writing seems to have appeared in Egypt about 200 years later, around 3100 BCE. Both writing and the use of copper seem to have spread widely from those early origins. In China, the earliest culture seems to have been the Yang-shao. The Yang-shao seem to have been migratory around the bend of the Yellow River, and created beautiful gray pottery. I don't know of any metals associated with the Yang-shao. We see, however, the beginnings of the Bronze Age during the Shang Dynasty 1523-1027 BCE. We think there must have been some metallurgy previous to the introduction of Bronze, but there isn't any record that I know of. Chinese Shang bronze-ware is without peer. Even today we would have difficulty in producing bronze castings comparable to Shang Dynasty.
The next step was the understanding that an alloy could be formed by mixing two different molten metals. The development of alloys was an important step. The alloy of copper and tin, for instance, is Bronze. Bronze is much harder than either of its constituents, and Mankind had it's first practical man-made material for making tools and weapons. The Bronze Age began in the Near East around 2800 BCE, and lasted until displaced by the Iron Age around 1,200 BCE. Pre-dynastic Egypt in the period before 3000 BCE used copper, and Egyptian conquest of Nubia (a source of important ores) seems to be closely associated with the beginnings of Dynastic Egypt. Bronze was the metal of choice for over a thousand years. Troy was built and destroyed during the Bronze Age.
The use of iron is general thought to have started around 2500 BCE in the Middle East. Though iron is about 500 times more plentiful than copper, it is also much harder to extract from ore and work. Iron has to have some carbon to give it strength, and it has relatively high melting temperatures. Even though iron began to be worked not long after Bronze captured the world, it remained scarce and expensive for a long time. Iron-tipped plows were used in ancient Palestine, and may have, along with chariots, given the Hyksos the edge they needed to conquer much of the region.
After 1000 BCE iron increasingly displaced Bronze. Mining and the production of metals for tools and weapons required a sophisticated bureaucratic organization. Slaves to work the primitive mines was one important reason to wage war on one's neighbors. Iron remained the primary material from which tools and other items were made for another 3000 years.
During most of that time, metallurgy was only a sub-set of alchemy. When European rulers got themselves into an arms race to gain military superiority by possession of the best, most reliable cannon, metallurgy began to emerge as a separate science. The advent of the scientific method and a more sophisticated technological infra-structure made possible the large scale manufacture of steel. Steel had, like iron, been known for many years but was too difficult to produce in large quantities. Samurai swords were among the first examples of laminate steel.
I've mentioned the importance of the Krupp Steel Works in Germany, and the importance of production steel in America is well known.
My grandchildren are clamoring for me to get up and take them out, so I guess this had better stop here.
Great links! They do seem to support the recent articles in the LA Times concerning the gentics of the earliest American inhabitants. The brown bear fossil findings and studies also seem to indicate a good habitat over land (near the coastline) for "migrations" as well for the entire time of glaciation. (humans and brown bears have had similar habitats)
As for channeling the energies of the populations to build these pyramids of mesoamerica, the idea of a stablizing effect on the society is correct in my assumption. Religions can be a major influence upon the motivations of a society and perhaps pyramids played an important part of their religions. Ah! But where did all these various cultures in such remote places get this same idea?
I wonder if their is some kind of science that traces religions back in history (does this science have a name?), just as Liguistics can be used to trace back languages?
Traditional musical instruments, musical scales used, etc., may also have possibilities of use as a "tracer". Just wondering what this science would be called?
By the way, its beginning to look like this thread may have to be branched off in a tree formation in the future.
APh&P(Part 2): Pyramids
APh&P(Part 2): Genetics
APh&P(Part 2): Linguistics
APh&P(Part 2): Archeaology
APh&P(Part 2): Religions(?)
APh&P(Part 2): Music(?)
Wow!!! Thats a lot of branches! Any-one have any better ideas? Maybe we just go to part 2 and keep everything together. I don't like having to go thread jumping to put information together. I think I'll vote for just a (part 2) for the future.
Somebody could start up a whole website up with this thread!
Well, back to more explorations :-))
The Why Files
The 'Opinion corner' for the miscellaneous aspects of this and perhaps 'Plants, Animals, & Humans' section may be a good place for the genetics side of this.
By the way, I have posted a few things over there in the
past but the responses were not so frequent. Since the Why
Files has got real slow, we might be able to speed it back up
and put it to use, in addition to DCOL. What do you think?
Welcome to this thread, you gave us excelent info, i disaggre only in a minor point.
Iron ore are very common, and the extraction of iron is very easy, since most of the iron ores are oxides, if you compared to copper, which most ores are sulfur compounds, so sulfur must be eliminated first (roasting), and then reduced to get the metal.
But you are right, the iron obtained by this method is very soft and it's not very usefull for making tools (i would like to know the carbon content in the iron amulets found in King tuth tomb).
To me the interesting part it was that probably it was not the discovering of iron, but the process to enriched it with carbon (carburization) and obtain steel what gave advantage and started the iron age.
Just think of it, after the called people from the sea, disrupted the comercial trade, tin and copper were scarce, so maybe they had to use that lousy metal, iron.
so they put it in a furnace with a lot of carbon, and maybe some lime, to heat it, it had to stay there for at least 6 or 8 hours, then it was forged, and quenched. And suddenly they obtained a material much stronger than they had dreamed.
A soft core and a hard edge, the ideal sword, it should had been looked like magic.
They use alloy of coper and some gold. After the objects were made, the heath the objets until some of the superficial copper was oxidized. Then the oxide was cleaned and the object was polished.
The loss of coper in the surface gave a surface rich in gold,so the object looked like pure gold.
So the Conquistadores destroyed many beatifull objects, only to get a very low quantity of gold....
Most of the musical instruments recovered from mesoamerica are flutes.
There are some flutes double and triple, sugesting that they knew harmony.
But they had not a fixed scale like ours.
Although their scale has been defined as pentatonic. it's probably microtonal, since they did not use temperated scale we use today.
It seems there are some studies here, form then National School of music, but i have never found nothing published :-((
I amd not shure about joining other forums, i have barely time to check the material we have on this one :-))
Seems to be very informative!
It is however some very interesting reading :-))
Oh well. I guess that I was in a bit of a hurry. This thread is getting long, so I'll start Part 2.
It might be wise to make a text copy of this thread as well
as a bookmark for future referencing.
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