DID JESUS EXIST?

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DID JESUS EXIST???
by wheel@u.washington.edu,
Wed Dec 11 20:18:40 1996
I am not even convinced that Jesus even existed, let alone be the son of God. For one, there were Jesus cults around long before his alleged birth, which went through the whole ritual of a resurrection. Also, why don't any of the many writers we have the works of who lived at the time of Jesus ever say anothing about Jesus? Josephus is commonly cited as one, but actually he only mentions Jesus briefly in one paragraph, which raises the question as to whether it was a later insertion by Christian writers. Also, the gospel writers did not even live at the same time as Jesus. They lived 70 to 130 years after his time.
DID JESUS EXIST???
by David,
Thu Dec 12 00:05:47 1996
In looking at an "historical" Jesus there are only three real choices. First, Jesus was a real person and spoke the truth about his relationship with God. He was indeed, the Christ or Messiah or what ever one chooses to call devine consciousness in human form. Second, Jeus was a real person, but just like the rest of us. Perhaps he had more charisma and the ability to express himself well, but essentially just a guy. Thirdly, he never existed and is a fictional character created by someone (or someones) else, that has taken on a life of his own. Given the impact of the Jesus character on world history and the momentum of the early years of the Christian Church, the third option is the least likely. The gospels and other early books were written for groups of people who already believed. The silence of the written record during the 50 years after the death of Jesus is not evidence that a strong christian community did not exist. In fact, it may be an arguement for such a group. To create Jesus and the New Testement as a fiction and then sell it in a backwater area such as Galilee is pretty unlikely. Actual converts have to come from somewhere. Books alone will not do the trick. Any perpetuator of this hoax has to get seed group of converts from somewhere. And they must be convinced by someone that there is value and meaning to the story. It would take a pretty capable person to dream up, and actually carry out such a program of deception over time. Possible, but not likely. That leaves the other two. Here you have to choose or remain undecided. If you choose option one, then Jesus could be both fully divine and fully human at the same time. But if you choose option two, then you are ruling out any conscious knowledge/experience of divinity in a historical Jesus. He becomes just another man of exceptional influence.

I beleive that there is enough evidence, historical and circumstantial to say that there was a person named Jesus who lived in that time and place. To go the next step is a personal decision and one that is not be based in fact.

DID JESUS EXIST???
by juhute,
Thu Dec 12 08:44:13 1996
First of all, his name was not Jesus. I find it strange that most Christians do not know his name was not Jesus. My understanding is that the name Jesus is a Greek name, and Christ was Hebrew. Some people even think that Christ is his last name. The Webster Dictionary list his Hebrew name as Yeshua. Christian claim to love Christ, but they can not even keep his name. I guess that is OK with most Christians, as they think this is a trivial point. I know if I ever do something special for the world, I sure would want to be remember by my true name. I would like to know who changed his name to Jesus, when they changed it, and why they changed his name. I remember reading in the Bible somewhere if you love me, keep my name." Is the truth necessary?

DID JESUS EXIST???
by b222834@msn.com,
Thu Dec 12 08:58:26 1996
Jesus does exist. This is a personal opinion. I know Jesus exists the same way I know my mother and father exist, because I know them personally. To try to prove that Jesus existed, or in fact any historical person existed is only possible to the extent you believe the words written about them are true. There is a sense in which you cannot prove anything, even your own existence. If you have studied philosophy, you know all about that circle. There are many theories about the Bible, and there have been many attempts to prove that what is in it is empirically true. There have also been many attempts to disprove it. In the end, it comes down to a matter of faith. It is good you are asking questions about Jesus. This shows interest. Perhaps he is working in your heart to make you one of his own. I hope this is true. Did Jesus Exist? Yes. Does he exist? Yes, but you have to know him to know that. Good Luck

.
DID JESUS EXIST???
by ginam@cnet.com,
Thu Dec 12 15:11:05 1996
Someone wrote on another site, that I feel very necessary to mention here, that if you believe that the greatest thing that can happen to you, is yourself, it is sad. I will pray for those of you that think that way, and God help you.

DID JESUS EXIST???
by wheel,
Thu Dec 12 15:36:25 1996
Does anybody have anything constructive to say, other than just sermonizing?
DID JESUS EXIST???
by D.D.,
Thu Dec 12 18:17:46 1996
Wheel, David had some good points. He gave you the logical options without preaching.

The writers of the Gospel did so live at the time of Jesus. 1)Matthew, Jesus' disciple, written about 70 AD (40 years after Christs death, though some scholars say it could have been written in 50 or 60 AD)

2) MARK; "most likely recorded the events as he heard them firsthand from the disciple Peter." (NIV study Bible) written as early as 50 AD.

3) LUKE; Companion of the Apostle Paul. Written approx. 59-63 AD.

4)JOHN; One of the twelve original disciples. Written anywhere from 50 to 95 AD. Also, just because a book my be dated later, it could have been written much earlier. Christians at this time were extremely persecuted and tortured. Many had to meet in secrecy. The Apostle Paul is one remarkable argument for the divinity of Jesus. There are other written documents that speak of the way in which Paul (then Saul) persecuted christians. He would hunt them down and have them jailed and no telling what else. Then, almost overnight, he converts and becomes one of the most faithful followers of Christ? Risking life and limb for the church and traveling continuously to spread the word of God. (read Acts, a great story) Getting an understandable study Bible helped me lot. It gives a lot of background information. The exsistence of Jesus is rarely argued, even writings from non-christians from that time have referred to him, what you believe ABOUT him is purely up to you. Good Luck.
DID JESUS EXIST???
by juhute,
Fri Dec 13 11:00:57 1996
Wheel, I think the nature of the question you asked requires a sermon answer, because there are no history facts pertaining to the existence of Jesus. If there were, believe me, followers would be all over this page telling you where to find information, (beside the Bible) to prove his existence. I have asked this question all my life, and I have never been given a satisfactory answer. However, I have been scolded many times for asking the question, and accused of not having faith. Faith has nothing to do with it explaining this issue. I am looking for facts not theories. I know the story of the Sun/Son of God, virgin birth, and resurrection were told thousand of years before Jesus in cultures all over the world. You cannot rely on the Bible for the truth because it is flawed with errors

.
DID JESUS EXIST???
by jparry@01sprynet.com,
Sat Dec 14 06:32:03 1996
I agree with DD, but there may have been someone in the mideast who was killed by the govenrment through a misunderstanding, than his reputation got greatly imploted.
DID JESUS EXIST???
by Traci,
Mon Dec 16 15:58:18 1996
Think of it this way. Nobody will dispute the fact that the bible, in it's simplest most agreed upon form, is a written record of an oral tradition in which the Hebrew people passed down their laws, morals, lineages, histories, and as such is no different than folk or anthropological texts anywhere. Can we agree on this, without attempting to persuade or dissuade people into believing or not believing in the existense of an omniscient being? Okay, then. Next step. Oral tradition of the hebrews repeats over and over and over that amessianic figure will arrive, born of the lineage of David. Okay. You keep getting told something often enough you will believe. So generations upon generations of beliefe and tradition are telling you exactly what to look for. And then, bingo, there it is. I refuse to debate the existence of Jesus Christ as son of God, ethereal being, etc. Here we are discussing history, not personaal religious belief systems. Did Jesus exist. Undoubtedly. A man named Jesus was born sometime between 10 BCE and 3 BCE. And this same man was crucified, a common executional form at the time. Was he the messiah? I don't know. He certainlt met all of the qualifications handed down from generations past, and apparently he was seen to perform miracles. However whether this is truly the case, or merely a later invention used by his adherents to bolster their candidates claim to the title of Messiah I do not know. There is an intriguing parallel. The Aztec oral tradition has it that the people of Atzlan migrated from a northern country to the present day Valley of Mexico. They settled there because it had been fortold that they should build their city on the spot where a golden eagle landed on a cactus and devoured a snake. This was seen, and thus they build their city. The great god Quetzlcoatl came among them in his glory and helped them overcome their enemies. But he was angered by some wrong done hime, and he went to dwell with a people to the east. Before he left, he told the Aztec that in a certain year (I believe it was the year Reed 4 according to the aztec calendar) he would return leading the wind and an enormous cloud of pure white. The aztec should look to the east and they would see him, golden hair and beard, pale skin and eyes, couvered in "scales." A mighty comet in the years before his arrival would presage his coming. Sure enough, following a comet that appeared in the western sky, the aztec soon were told of the arrival of Cortez - a blond haired, pale skinned, blued eyed man- wearing armour (scales). He came on a ship with billowing sails (the white cloud) and he came from the east. Everything was as it was foretold, and he was initially hailed as the returning god, Quetzlcoatl. Of course, he wasn't he destroyed the Aztecs and conquered Mexico. But he made advantageous use of the myth that he apparently embodied. So, yes, I believe that there was a human being named Jesus. And I believe that he espoused a new and and alarmingly radical new concept of religion that sent shudders through the civilized world and fear through the heart of the establishment. Was he the son of God, the savious of mankind? I really don't know, and from an historical standpoint I don't care much either way. Because what he did was create belief and faith. And that seems to be enough for most people. As for me I need to see some additional supporting documentation of some sort before I can believe. Because, when you get to the heart of it, we're talking about a book in 2 parts. One lists the oral traditions of an early civilization. The 2 half is basically well written propaganda supporting the claims of men who would like us to believe that Jesus was the son of God. Whether or not you do, is entirely up to you.

DID JESUS EXIST???
by retrohiv,
Tue Dec 17 01:02:15 1996
I believe that Jesus existed. What I'm not so sure is if he really was what they say.
DID JESUS EXIST???
by mudman2@pipeline.com,
Tue Dec 17 13:05:53 1996
Traci, just one question? I think the qualification comparision between Cortez and Christ is a valid one, but can you really compare the men? Christ shared his message and claimed he was the son of God. Cortez, on the other hand, tried to convey to the Aztecs that he was from Spain and not heaven. He never claimed to be devine, although sometimes he acted as if he had the blessing of God to kill. You also must consider that Jesus was unusally apt in religous matters before he had even reached his 10th birthday. At that age, their is no way a child could manipulate his character to fit the expectation of a savior. As for the prearranged idea of the messiah's coming, I consider it a miricale, not a discrepancy.
DID JESUS EXIST???
by Jeff W,
Tue Dec 17 15:12:30 1996
Here is a rather lengthy posting being circulated in Jewish circles. Take it as you wish. It's certainly food for thought

REFUTING MISSIONARIES: by Hayyim ben Yehoshua

PART 1: THE MYTH OF THE HISTORICAL JESUS

Much concern has been expressed in the Jewish media regarding the activity of "Jews for Jesus" and other missionary organizations who go out of their way to convert Jews to Christianity. Unfortunately, many Jews are ill-equipped to deal with Christian missionaries and their arguments. Hopefully this article will contribute to remedying this situation.

When countering Christian missionaries it is important to base one's arguments on correct facts. Arguments based on incorrect facts can easily backfire and end up strengthening the arguments of the missionaries.

It is rather unfortunate that many well meaning Jewish Studies teachers have unwittingly aided missionaries by teaching Jewish pupils incorrect information about the origins of Christianity. I can recall being taught the following story about Jesus at the Jewish day school which I attended:

"Jesus was a famous first century rabbi whose Hebrew name was Rabbi Yehoshua. His father was a carpenter named Joseph and his mother's name was Mary. Mary became pregnant before she married Joseph. Jesus was born in a stable in Bethlehem during a Roman census. Jesus grew up in Nazareth and became a learned rabbi. He travelled all over Israel preaching that people should love one another.

Some people thought that he was the Messiah and he did not deny this which made the other rabbis very angry. He caused so much controversy that the Roman governor Pontius Pilate had him crucified. He was buried in a tomb and later his body was found to be missing since it had probably been stolen by his disciples."

A few years after being taught this seemingly innocent story, I became interested in the origins of Christianity and decided to do some further reading on the "famous Rabbi Yehoshua." Much to my dismay, I discovered that there was no

historical evidence of this Rabbi Yehoshua. The claim that Jesus was a rabbi named Yehoshua and the claim that his body was probably stolen both turned out to be pure conjecture. The rest of the story was nothing more than a watered down version of the story which Christians believe as part of the Christian religion but which is not supported by any legitimate historical source. There was absolutely no historical evidence that Jesus, Joseph or Mary ever existed, let alone that Joseph was a carpenter or that Jesus was born in Bethlehem and lived in Nazareth.

Despite the lack of evidence for Jesus's existence many Jews have made the tragic mistake of assuming that the New Testament story is largely correct and have tried to refute Christianity by attempting to rationalize the various miracles that allegedly occured during Jesus's life and after his death. Numerous books have been written which take this approach to Christianity. This approach however is hopelessly flawed and is in fact dangerous since it encourages belief in the New Testament.

When the Israelites were confronted with the worship of Baal they did not blindly accept the ancient West Semitic myths as history. When the Maccabees were confronted with Greek religion they did not blindly accept Greek mythology as history. Why do so many modern Jews blindly accept Christian mythology? The answer to this question seems to be that many Christians do not know themselves where the distinction between established history and Christian belief lies and they have passed their confusion on to the Jewish community. Browsing through the religion section of a local bookshop, I recently came across a book which claimed to be an objective biography of Jesus. It turned out to be nothing more than a summary of the usual New Testament story. It even included claims that Jesus's miracles had been witnessed but that rational explanations for them might exist. Many history books written by Christians take a similar approach. Some Christian authors will suggest that perhaps the miracles are not completely historical but they nevertheless follow the general New Testament story. The idea that there was a real historical Jesus has thus become entrenched in Christian society and Jews living in the Christian world have come to blindly accept this belief because they have never seen it seriously challenged.

Despite the widespread belief in Jesus the fact remains that there is no historical Jesus. In order to understand what is meant by an "historical Jesus," consider King Midas in Greek mythology. The story that King Midas turned everything he touched into gold is clearly nonsense, yet despite this we know that there was a real King Midas. Archaeologists have excavated his tomb and found his skeletal remains. The Greeks who told the story of Midas and his golden touch clearly intended people to identify him with the real Midas. So although the story of the golden touch is fictional, the story is about a person whose existence is known as a fact - the "historical Midas." In the case of Jesus, their is however, no single person whose existence is known as a fact and who is also intended to be the subject of the Jesus stories, i.e. there is no historical Jesus.

When confronted by a Christian missionary, one should immediately point out that *the very existence of Jesus has not been proven*. When missionaries argue they usually appeal to emotions rather than to reason and they will attempt to make you feel embarrassed about denying the historicity of Jesus. The usual response is something like _"Isn't denying the existence of Jesus just as silly as denying the existence of Julius Caesar or Queen Elizabeth?"_. A popular variation of this response used especially against Jews is _"Isn't denying the existence of Jesus like denying the Holocaust?"_ One should then point out that there are ample historical sources confirming the existence of Julius Caesar, Queen Elizabeth or whoever else is named, while there is no corresponding evidence for Jesus.

To be perfectly thorough you should take time to do some research on the historical personalities mentioned by the missionaries and present hard evidence of their existence. At the same time you should challenge the missionaries to provide similar evidence of Jesus's existence. You should point out that although the existence of Julius Caesar or Queen Elizabeth etc, is accepted worldwide, the same is not true of Jesus. In the Far East where the major religions are Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism and Confucism, Jesus is considered to be just another character in Western religious mythology, on a par with Thor, Zeus and Osiris. Most Hindus do not believe in Jesus, but those who do consider him to be one of the many avatars of the Hindu god Vishnu. Muslims certainly believe in Jesus but they reject the New Testament story and consider him to be a prophet who announced the coming of Muhammed. They explicitly deny that he was ever crucified.

To sum up, there is no story of Jesus which is uniformly accepted worldwide. It is this fact which puts Jesus on a different level to established historical personalities. If the missionaries use the "Holocaust reply," you should point out that the Holocaust is well-documented and that there are numerous eyewitness reports. It should be pointed out that most of the people who deny the Holocaust have turned out to be antisemitic hate-mongers with fraudulent credentials. On the other hand, millions of honest people in Asia, who make up the majority of the world's population, have failed to be convinced by the Christian story of Jesus since there is no compelling evidence for its authenticity. The missionaries will insist that the story of Jesus is a well-established fact ...(truncated)
DID JESUS EXIST???
by Jeff W,
Tue Dec 17 15:14:41 1996
Bummer, looks like this will not let me post the entire article w/o truncating it.

If you're interested in it, post your e-mail address here and I'll send it to you.
DID JESUS EXIST???
by Traci,
Wed Dec 18 11:18:31 1996
Mudman,

Actually, I am not comparing the men themselves or even their beliefs, rather, I was trying to compare them in terms of the oral messianic tradition which was inherent in the Hebrew and Aztec cultures, and which eventually corresponded with the arrival of actual historical figures. As to your point regarding the child Jesus as teacher, the evidence for the religious precocity of Jesus is based on biblical tradition which may be little more than propitious advertising by early Christian adherents. A similar tradition from the American frontier holds that little Davy Crockett killed him a bear when he was onlt three. This is completely unfounded and patently untrue, nevertheless accepted by many as having actually occurred. All heroic figures, cross-culturally, in oral tradition are ascribed with tremendous abilities, often displayed at extremely early age, which children clearly do not possess. This is a basic tenet of heroic epic literature, whether written or oral. I do not view messianic tradition as a discrepancy. I hold to the belief that as human beings we see what it is that we expect to see and what we want to see, particularly if we have been culturally geared towards that epiphany. Whether or not Jesus is irrelevant. That many people in the 1st century AD believed that he was is clear. Why else would New Testament writers go to so much trouble to keep the tradition of Jesus Christ the Messiah alive?

DID JESUS EXIST???
by Traci,
Wed Dec 18 11:23:10 1996
third to the last sentence should read. "Whether or not Jesus was the messiah is irrelevant" SOrry about the typo.

DID JESUS EXIST???
by D.D.,
Wed Dec 18 17:40:13 1996
Jeff: You say there is no evidence at all suggesting that Jesus ever exsisted. (I am assuming you are Jewish and practice Judaism based on your comments) Is there any physical evidence that Moses, Abraham, David or ANY one in the old testament exsisted? Is there any physical evidence that God himself exsists? Why is it so difficult to believe that Old Testament prophesy, that God promised, was fulfilled throught Jesus' birth? And furthermore, I think you are incorrect in your assumption that a historical Jesus did not exsist. I have heard that NON christian and non biblical sources confirm that Jesus did in fact exsist.
DID JESUS EXIST???
by Jeff W,
Fri Dec 20 13:54:16 1996
DD, actually I'm not Jewish. The article I had posted, as I mentioned, is circulated in Jewish circles. I merely found it interesting and thought-provoking.

Recently, a team of archaeologists uncovered a 9th century B.C. inscription at an ancient mound called Tel Dan, in the north of Israel, in 1993. Words carved into a chunk of basalt refer to the "House of David" and the "King of Israel." It is the first time the Jewish monarch's name has been found outside the Bible, and appears to prove he was more than mere legend.

Verification of Moses' and Abraham's existance is only a matter of time. As for any one else in the Old Testament existing, the evidence is far too voluminous to mention. The earliest info that I'm aware of that validate's the OT is the town of Jericho, fallen walls and all (except of course for the Northern wall. . .as written in the Book of Joshua).

Physical evidence of G-d? Come now, you can't have physical evidence of someone who is not a physical being. For other evidence, look around you.

The OT prophecies you listed were not all fulfilled by Jesus anyway. Let's see...rebuild temple...gather all exiles of Israel...just to name a few. I'm not sure how one reconciles those facts.

I have heard non-christians mention the Easter Bunny, but it doesn't exist. Sorry for being 'flip', but it's just a weak argument. And the non-biblical sources are addressed in the document I tried to post.

If you're interested in it let me know. I'll send it to you.
DID JESUS EXIST???
by Dave B. ,
Fri Dec 20 14:56:02 1996
Having read this entire Q&A, I would like to add to it.

For those who contradict the existence of Jesus purely on lack of physical evidence, I believe there is a divine intent for such lack of "footprints of humanity." I believe that God deliberately left no physical evidence of Jesus' time on Earth for such conversations as this. In the Old Testament, salvation was based on a Covenant or "agreement" between God and people. The agreement to abide and love according to God. The New Testament contains fulfillment of prophecy found in the OT and moves salvation to that of God's grace through faith. Faith in God's Son and repentance by asking for salvation. Faith being defined as believing in that you cannot see. If you or I could physically see God or Jesus today and witness acts only They could perform, there would be a "Born Again Bandwagon" bigger than anything.

However, to "help" your faith get into gear, God did leave telltale clues of other types. For example, He did have the disciples and their writings. However, there are other clues. For example, a character in the NT is Joseph of Arimethea - he has a traceable lineage. Joseph of Arimethea donated his tomb to Christs' body - a tomb that had never been used. It was a common practice to reuse tombs once the body decomposed significantly. This was a direct fulfillment of OT prophecy.

I personally believe he exists today whether you do or not. On last consideration - People used to believe that the world was flat - now we know better. You or I may not live long enough to learn the truth about Christ (well, I will, but that's a belief issue) - but just because we may not witness certain events in the future, doesn't mean they may not come to pass. If they come to pass exactly as prophecied in the Bible, well then, one day someone will say, "Can you believe people back then were so ignorant?"
DID JESUS EXIST???
by Jeff W,
Sat Dec 21 16:10:51 1996
Dave B, alas an excellent, intelligent argument on the topic. I thank you for your contribution to this posting!

I would like to know more about Joseph of Arimethea.
DID JESUS EXIST???
by D.D.,
Mon Dec 23 11:32:34 1996
To Dave B. AMEN!!!

!
DID JESUS EXIST???
by Dave B. ,
Mon Dec 23 11:58:43 1996
To Jeff W. on Joseph of Arimathaea (note corrected spelling):

This person's name appears four times in the New Testament; all in the four Gospels. The occurence of his mentioning is the same in that he petitiioned Pontius Pilate for Christ's body to bury. I believe that four mentionings is critical since he is a named individual giving him some form of traceable history or lineage. Without knowing who specifically donated an new unused tomb for Christ, the OT prophecy would not hold valid to prove that this was the one true Messiah.

It is also important to know that a second person was involved in the burial process of Jesus. Nicodemus assisted Joseph of A. by performing the "embalming" process. This was not a fluids removal type of embalming, but that of wrapping the body in special incense and leaves along with the linen.

Both Nicodemus and Joseph of A. were listed as members of the Sanhedrine; a counsel of Jews. Nicodemus was also a member of the Pharisees and a Rabbi. Joseph of A. is also described as a rich man and a disciple of Christ.

It's also important that these two men interacted with Pontius Pilate. This Roman leader is mentioned no less than 56 times in the Bible.

Therefore, Pontius Pilate is documentable. Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathaea are documentable. And purely on the probable theory scale since I do not have direct access to the proper types of documents: I would expect these individuals to be traceable through Roman writings. I suggest Roman since most Jewish history in that time was recorded from word of mouth; on the other hand, the Romans tended to document people specifically for tax purposes. After all, both Joseph and Mary were enroute to Bethlehem for the purpose of a Roman Census to be counted for taxes. So, I would deduct that provided these documents were preserved in some form, Nicodemus and Joseph of A. or their lineage would be traceable.

I hope that this is represented correctly among believers; I would not want to cast the wrong shadow on God's word

DID JESUS EXIST???
by jakee@nctc.com,
Tue Dec 24 05:47:58 1996
DAVE B: Ditto, Ditto, Ditto, Praise God for he does bring peace to your life, he loves all, even those who do not know him.

DID JESUS EXIST???
by gumneck@interpath.com,
Fri Dec 27 09:23:47 1996
One thing for sure is the cross. The romans did use them for there form of capital punishment. If Yahveh was put to death today, in 500 years, on the tops of churchs would be a hangmans rope,ele.chair needle etc. Myself I did not believe in him or his father. Now I believe that he lived and died,and rose on the third day,and live today and forever. I've read all the postings they are very interesting.

DID JESUS EXIST???
by bigr@agate.net,
Fri Dec 27 16:45:07 1996
There will probably never be the inclusive evidence so many seek as to the proof of the historical Jesus and who he was. But, having faced death many times in Vietnam, I understand the fear of man and what it can cause you to day and say. One of the most intriguing things I ever read in the bible that hardly anyone, historiain or otherwise, fails to mention as a great witness to Jesus is this: Those twelve followers of Christ, His disciples, ate with Him, slept with Him, walked many miles with Him and witnessed every miracle He ever performed. They must have been totally awestruct at the magnitude of them. Or were they? Who was this Man, they must have asked. And Jesus, before His death,asked them: Who do men say that I am? And they replied; they say you are the Christ; the Son of Man. And who do you say I am? He asked them. And they replied; the Son of the Living God. Now this is all well and good so far but, what happened to these men at Jesus' arrest and trial; and later His crucifiction?

They scattered like field mice in a haystack. After witnessing all His miracles and hearing all of His inspiring teachings; they refuted even knowing this man, let alone believing in him. And then something happened. Something almost unbelievable and totally unconventional happened. These same twelve men, scattered in the fear of death; inspite of all the great things they witnessed from this Man, were now marching in the face of it. Staring it down with an unrelenting conviction and boldness. What changed these 12 frightened men? What possibly could have happened to embolden them that they had not already witnessed with their own eyes? As I said previously,having stared at death myself and knowing how fear plays on the mind, I can only come to one conclusion. They no longer feared it. The proof we seek. They found. They witnessed the Great Conqueror of Death. In my mind, there just is no other rational explaination. If I myself wanted to promulgate a lie or a false doctrine, I would never bare witness to my fear, disbelief and lack of faith as they did. I can not be sure of historical documentation but, I believe it is well documented that these 12 men; no braver than you or I, preached the Gospel and the hope of the world through Jesus Christ our Lord. Even unto their martyred death. Surely, these men saw what all men seek. Their lives and their witness has given that witness to me. but

DID JESUS EXIST???
by gumneck@intrpath.com,
Fri Dec 27 18:32:48 1996
they only give you so much room. When you check back finish your post ok. And thanks for being there in nam.

DID JESUS EXIST???
by Javier Delgado privada@rtn.net.mx,
Tue Dec 31 09:13:45 1996
Traci I think you are mixing Huitzilopochtli, the main god of the aztecs, with Queztalcotl. The aztec didnt know of queztalcoatl until they founded Tenochtitlan. Quetzalcoatl was not important to them until Tlacaelel ordered to burn their history books so they could rewrite their history. Quetzalcoalt was not a white man. White was his atribute, he was know as white Tezcatlipoca (tezcatlipoca was his twin, but his atribute color was black)

Most of the jew history of the time was recorded by Flavio Josefo, a Jew. He wrote About Pilatos but never about jesus. He also wrote about certain Joshua who claim to be a mesiah but no much, instead he prefered to write about the esenians.

now it a bit strange since Josefo surely knew about cristians, maybe he did not wanted to say his religion was related to them.

Maybe the right question coulb be. How much of the stories of Jesus are historical? We must remember that our concept of history is very recent. To the people of that time it was not important if a story were true, there were to teach or amuse.
DID JESUS EXIST???
by Javier Delgado,
Thu Jan 2 09:12:31 1997
I just check the book of Josefo, War of the Jews. There is a note from the editor warning that the mention of Jesus probably was inserted later and not by Josefo.

The main problemas was, that the followers of Jesus though the kingdom of god would be in their life so no one take care of writting it. The years oassed and they began to write what they knew. A study I read about the gospels sugest they were copied from an older source known as the Q document. The discovery of this document could help. Another source are the so called gnostic gospells.

The gospells in the bible are not the only ones, the only problem is that most of the gnostic gospells were destroyed, the church didnt like what they say. I 1940 some of them were discovered in an Egiptyam tomb, but i havent found any edition of them. They seem to be Gospell by Maria Magdalena, Gospell by Santiago (Jesus Brother) and Gospell by Judas. I really dont know if they were really written by this people, but they are documents old enough to be of interest.

All these sources should be take with care (including the bible) since they were not write with our concept of history. For Example, have you noticed that the two genalogies of Jesus in the Gospell, have not any comon name betwen them.

Like the Illiad the Bible can be a guide but not necesarilly the truth. For example, Jerico existed (In fact it,s the oldest city in the world almost 10,000 years old) And the city was destroyed, but it was destroyed a least 16 timed in the bronce age and archeologist cannot dated any of those destruccions with the time it was supposed to be destroyed by the jews. The city existed for several centuries more.

DID JESUS EXIST???
by Dave B.,
Thu Jan 2 13:07:53 1997
To Javier:

Regarding the two geneologies of Jesus, What Bible verses lead you to that conclusion?

Regarding Jericho. If you are referring to the OT passages in Joshua 6:16, I would like to point out that there is some room for interpretation of what "destruction" of Jericho is. Reading carefully in those passages to the end of the chapter, you find that only the city's walls were physically knocked down. All things in the city were killed and that it was then burned. However, for a city to survive centuries after this occurrance, some of the construction must have resisted fire. Also, keep in mind that fire was a "purification" process in the OT. I would be curious if dating techniques on fire damage would help the scientific types swing more toward validating OT history on this city. Also, you stated in your posting that history and time concepts were not the same as they are now. It almost sounds as if you "argued" against yourself to make the point.

Not degrading your opinion, just making observations/comments. Thanks for posting.
DID JESUS EXIST???
by Javier Delgado,
Thu Jan 2 19:14:50 1997
Sorry i should had been more specific. but i didnt have my bible at hand. Check ant Mathew 01-01 and compared this genealogy with Luke 02-23. (I was tempted to post the whole verses but i though it better you check it in your version) You are right there is room to interpretation. Thats is Why it should be taken with care, we canot take the bible in literal form if we do not understand how think the people who wrote it. Maybe they did not burned the city but just purify it, on the other hand the city could be rebuild if enough population survived but if the population was exterminated, has i undestand it says, hardly it would have survive

DID JESUS EXIST???
by Dave B.,
Fri Jan 3 06:37:54 1997
Javier - Thanks for the response posting. I checked the verses in the KJV of the Bible. I didn't see any contradiction in geneologies at all. In fact, if you begin reading in Luke 1:1 through the Luke verse you gave me, you'll see that it was specifically mentioned that Joseph was from the House of David.

Back to Jericho. Reading further into Joshua 6 (from 6:16 on), it appears as if only one surviving family was saved - that of Rahab the Harlot and her father's house (usually meaning family). The passages further seem to indicate that Jericho was then inhabited by another group of people. Therefore, showing no real signs of physical destruction save for the walls. I may be mis reading that, but it does seem to read that way.
DID JESUS EXIST???
by cjlong@msuvx2.memphis.edu,
Fri Jan 3 11:07:36 1997
I have read most of the messages in this questions and answer exchange and have found the amount of brown nosing rather distressing. Those of you speaking of faith have contridictated yourself greatly by needing the assurance, you will gain by having others share in your opinion. As for those of you who wish to prove his historical existence. Who really cares if your relegious beleifs do not come into the question? Who wants to prove the existence of another Jimmy Swagert?

DID JESUS EXIST???
by Javier Delgado,
Fri Jan 3 13:10:57 1997
Please Check carefully, maybe they start and end at the same names. But Mathew gave us 26 names from David to Jesus and Luke about 43 names. Just let us compare the first 10 names:

Luke: Jesus, Joseph, Heli, Mathat, Levi, Melchi, Janna, Joseph, Mattathias, Amos, etc until David.

Mathew: Jesus, Joseph, Jacob, Matthan, Eleazar, Eliud, Achim, Sadoc, Azor, Eliakim, etc. until David

As I said there is no name in common. Its a bit dificult to compare since one list is in inverse order to the other.

The list by itself its not important, (except for those that insist to take the Bible as an EXACT account) I think it was put there only to try to proved Jesus was from the House of David, But Jesus was not the son of Joseph, as was stressed by Luke.

I think Jesus probably existed but unless we found sources diferent from the Gospell it may be difficult to say what is historical and what is myth, and for those who accept Jesus (as a profet like muslims, or as a Saviour like cristians) faith may be enough.
DID JESUS EXIST???
by Dave B.,
Fri Jan 3 13:35:59 1997
Javier - Excellent points and I think we agree on a couple. First - the reason for my other post - you gave me Luke 2:23 not 3:23 which has the geneologies - I wasn't reading the right passages.

KJV shows Luke 3:23 stating that "...Jesus...was son of Joseph, which was (the son) of Heli,..."

Also, Matthew 1:16, "...Jacob begat Joseph...of whom was born Jesus..."

I excerpted these to avoid typing lenghty posts, but each verse specifically state the lineage.

On to the differences and I think we agree here that a literal word by word comparison appears to show a contradiction. Consider this - Matthew was a Jew where Luke was Gentile. Also, the NT was written in Greek not Hebrew. One other interesting point, the Luke lineage discusses "son of" or household names, the Matthew verses show proper names. Given this, there is room for perception of contradiction. Think of this - I can write the English name William in the Roman alphabet in other languages. German - Willhelm - Spanish -Guillermo. All three mean William yet to the casual observer, could be three different persons. If we could agree on that possibility, these lineages could then also hold up without error.

For me, I agree, there is no hard core evidence - hence the very foundation of the Christian Faith. Just that - faith. But lots of fun debatable clues.
DID JESUS EXIST???
by gumneck@interpath.com,
Sat Jan 4 18:05:15 1997
The question is not did he exist, does he exist? Remember he is not realy dead now, he over came death. He has a body of flesh and bones, but no blood. There for he is alive right now!!
DID JESUS EXIST???
by :),
Sun Jan 5 08:42:19 1997
There is no way you can believe in Jesus if you don't know Him. If you would take time to talk to Him, you would find out that He WAS alive, and he still is today in the believers hearts

.